Melody [0:00]

Welcome to the Game Master Certification Organization's interview excerpt podcast series. Hi! I'm your host, Melody Rainelle. For the next few episodes, we have the pleasure of interviewing Hawke Robinson, and in this podcast episode, we will be getting to know Hawke just a little bit. So, without further ado, Hawke, would you like to introduce yourself for our listeners? 

Hawke [0:25]

Hi my name is Hawke Robinson, I’m founder and president of the 501(c)(3) nonprofit RPG Research. We study the effects of all role-playing game formats for their potential to help improve lives around the world. We are 100% unpaid volunteers; we have more than 170 volunteers across six continents. And I also started gaming around 1977, researching the effects of role-playing games since 1983, running programs in educational settings with role playing games since 1985, with incarcerated population since 1989, and with therapeutic population since 2004. I'm also President and Founder of RPG Therapeutics and RPG.LLC, a for-profit company using role-playing games and cooperative music with a recreation therapy background to help people improve their lives with autism spectrum, brain injury, and many others. I am a Washington State Department of Health registered Recreational Therapist, with a background in Nursing, Education, Neuroscience, and Research Psychology, and Music Therapy and Play Therapy, and Compassion-focused Therapy.

Melody [1:30]

Awesome! Thank you so much! We’re definitely looking forward to hearing what you have to tell us! So to get started, let’s learn a little bit more about you. Would you tell us, what do you like about games?

Hawke [1:42] 

Games in general or role-playing games specifically?

Melody [1:45]

So, these are open-ended questions, so please answer them however you’d like.

Hawke [1:50]

Alright! Well, I don’t like all games, and I generally migrate towards cooperative games. Personally find the cooperative games much more enjoyable. It’s not that I don’t do solo games, and others and competitive games, I’ve played a lot of sports which are pretty much all competitive there. Martial arts, basketball, rugby, football, archery, golf, swimming, list goes on. And those are all fun in their own way. But the cooperative games, what’s great about them, from my experience, is just being able to go so much more beyond my single unit self’s capabilities, right, it’s that group capability we’ve discussed before about how 97% of the time the group can out-perform the individual. There are times the individual is the best approach, but then there are times, we can do so much more as a group than was possible. I really, really enjoy that, and having that shared experience, and, you know, later on being able to reminisce about it. We had aim activities, they weren’t always role-playing games, just other game activities that we did over the years, with friends. That years later you just remember, “Oh, remember that game when that happened and this happened and oh, that was so basic I couldn’t believe that happened!” And, well sometimes that will happen in the competitive sphere, certainly. I’ve found a lot more of those experiences, those memorable experiences, with the cooperative games, and it adds a higher level of unpredictability, and I like that, less predictable challenge where when you add more people to it, the social dynamics there, really add a complexity to it that makes it a lot less predictable. A lot of other games I just find very, very, very, very, very predictable, and as I got older, less engaging, unfortunately. So again, I’m gonna to migrate towards the cooperative games, which of course then, makes sense to go into role playing gaming and cooperative music, right, I do drum circles, and cooperative music jams. In a way that’s a game for me; I love doing music jams with people. Just showing up at an Irish gig at a pub, and everybody just kind of layers in at whatever their ability is at. And I studied Aikido for lot of years, in Aikido, everybody studies - all levels study together. Ah, it’s that whole circular thing, and it raises everybody up. We all do better through that process even the more advanced people every now and then a novice will bring in something new. That gives them a new perspective, etc. And I’m not somebody that needs a ton of structure, to enjoy an activity, So some people really need - like the structure, the rules of the game. I do tend to prefer games that are less restrictive and a little- I get very annoyed with assessments that are forced choice. Where you only have two answers that you can answer, and that’s it. Very unlike the real world from my perspective of the world that people often put themselves into, these dichotomies that they can only do either/or; only these binary choices. And yet, I see the world as many, many, many more opportunities than just this or this. And so games that tend to be more dichotomous like that I really don’t enjoy, the ones that have a lot more variability attract me, so that is what about games appeals to me, when games appeal. There’s a lot of other recreational activities I do that aren’t games. But when I do games, those are the ones I prefer, and generally, I think for the social aspect. I generally- I went through my phases of playing solo video games and all that solo games and they’re fine, they’re alright, they’re enjoyable for a little while, but I get pretty bored with the solo games before too long. I definitely enjoy the more social aspects of social games. I do a lot of other things solo just fine. I sometimes often enjoy that, I’m probably more- I am more of an introvert than an extrovert. But I’m able to easily stretch, and I do enjoy the social aspect of games even though there are plenty of solo games out there. 

Melody [5:50]

Very good! That’s a fair answer! Thank you so much! Ok moving on, so with all of your experience and being a game master, what is your favorite world building detail?

Hawke [6:03]

Favorite world building detail… I need context, what do you mean?

Melody [6:08]

So the questions are intentionally vague so do your best! Answer it however you’d like.

Hawke [6:15]

Okay, so you are intentionally leaving it- okay. My favorite self-created setting is a multiverse setting. It allows me to bring in anything that I want, to fit any genre and setting that I want into the setting, so that particular aspect for me, when I’m making my own world is my favorite thing. As far as a world building detail- as far like creating worlds, you know, there’s a lot of different philosophies about, well, you need to detail everything versus just create it on the fly versus, you know, different balances thereof. And for new GMs and new players, I think that is where we do come back to BECMI – the Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters/Immortals DND of Frank Mentzer from 1983. It starts small. It starts local. You’re a little farmer person whose become a warrior, you’re known to your local village and there’s this abandoned keep you need to go root out cause there’s starting to be trouble up there and go check it out. And it’s local and its local context. And you go and have that adventure and you go back and forth between the town and you slowly build the relationships, and your routes between that small town and that adventure, and you go back and forth till you finish that adventure. And then slowly as you go from basic to expert, for example, you start going out on wilderness adventures, you start to explore the world and see what’s out there. For the GM, its not necessary to have every single little detail worked out well in advance. Players will confound you all the time if you try to do that. However, over time- so I run campaigns that span many years and, collectively, have spanned decades, so the worlds over time become living, breathing entities that events happen whether the characters do something or not. There are some things that just happen. Earthquakes just happen. Certain weather patterns will just happen, right? And the characters are just going to have to deal with the consequences of that if they come into an area where that’s happened. Other things they’re going to have an impact that they may or may not be aware of. Uh, that group of orcs that they took out two years ago, there may have been one surviving child orc or something who’s had a vendetta ever since, you know, who went and ran across the countryside and went and built up a new clan and has brought back a much larger force and it’s all because of consequences that the players did way before. Uh, let’s say maybe the characters were more cruel than they needed to be, right, they... maybe tortured or something like that and so the ramifications caught up with them later. Allowing the world to be responsive to the players’ actions is very… I think important for worldbuilding. But, the world doesn’t fully center around them either, right? They have an impact, but it is a world with lots of other entities and creatures and events and things going on, and there’s a balance between that. And so that’s kind of how it grows. So, I’ll have a group, and the world is a variable multiverse setting. I’ll have one group go through one campaign and another group going through another campaign. They’re in the same setting but they’re going through two different adventures in different parts of the continent. They may be doing it at the same time or they may do it in slightly different phases of the multiverse and some of it may bleed through. And often, there, I intentionally leave their imprint for other players in the future, so, the group will come across a summoning circle or whatever that one of the other characters did from some group five years before, and it’s a left over from one of the previous groups that was there. And letting- allowing that impact to keep happening. When I was running Greyhawk campaign with three groups simultaneously, this was a- I was doing paid game mastering back in the eighty’s. I had two groups on Saturday, one on Sunday; they were all in the same Greyhawk campaign, advanced [inaudible - timestamp 09:51] first edition, and they were all on different quests, in different parts of the continent. But at one point, they coincidentally all picked the same kind of quest hook, for the same artifact, and they were all converging on the same location. And, it looked like they were all gonna get there roughly within a day of each other. I had a bit of a problem here, cause this was not a multiverse setting. They had heard about each other’s exploits even though they had no idea that they were hearing about other adventurers, they thought that they were just story hooks that I was putting out there. When in fact, the rumors they were hearing, were of the other groups and their exploits. So, when they took down the slave lord, they heard about it, this particular group that took it out, and they assumed it was just part of the flavor of the world setting. And, in fact, it was actually what the other players were doing. So here they were converging, and I needed to figure that out, and this is where we ended up. I did not tell the groups but I had them all adjust their schedule to come in on a Saturday and do a little longer session. This was back when my sessions were six to eight hours. And they all showed up at a table for a little over twenty people. Had them all sit down quietly, not knowing exactly what’s going on and then slowly one by one the group showed up in the adventure. There were some tense moments there as they kind of argued over who had the first right to go hunt for the artifact. They luckily did decide that they would all benefit if they worked together and maybe took turns luckily it was a multiuse artifact not a single use one. Might have been a little bit uglier. And they ventured together for a few weeks like that, and then, when they had achieved the goal, everybody followed through with keeping their word and taking turns using the artifact for goals they had needed it for. And then delivering it to the next group, etc. and they all went their separate ways, but now, when they heard rumors of some adventuring party took out this bad guy here, or rescued this, or saved this, they started to listen a little more attentively wondering, or knowing that that was the group of player characters that they had met previously. So these are different approaches I like to take with my worldbuilding to give a lot more life to it. Now, what I just described was mostly a recreational approach to worldbuilding. When I am doing it for applied gaming, so for education or therapy, then it’s a little different, right? Then it is: “Okay, I need to build the materials to teach the topic. It’s educational; putting together the 1600’s Tokugawa era campaign cause I want to teach them about that time period in feudal Japan and all the things going on. And the Dutch traders and the Portuguese and all these things going on.” That’s a different worldbuilding process obviously than the more recreational approach, or for the therapeutic one where I’m building the module that’s going to have specific events happening and specific stimuli so they can bring up the issues for discussion to achieve the therapeutic goals. When I work with people with various phobias, social phobias, agoraphobia, you know, they’ve locked themselves in their house, and are afraid to come out… creating an electronic role playing games for Neverwhere knights and then migrating them to table top slowly through an exposure therapy approach. Bringing in the topics that cause them discomfort but doing it incrementally and adjusting to their level of anxiety. Those are obviously more targeted approaches for worldbuilding to meet those specific client needs. So I just wanted to throw that in there differently than the recreational approach to worldbuilding.

Melody [12:59]

That is quite an interesting approach! Thank you so much for sharing that with us! Ok, and here is my last question for the first episode, describe your better self for us please!

Hawke [13:12] 

Patience and love. That’s my mantra, that’s what I’m always striving for. That’s what got me through my boys when they were teenagers especially. I would just say, “Patience and love. Patience and love.” I sometimes struggle with the patience thing, I don’t generally strug- I think I consider myself a pretty loving individual. I’ve always had a lot of love to give even when I went through- I had to bottle that up during the bad years, during some periods of my life decades ago, and, you know, had to protect myself because of the environments I was in. But when I’m being my best self, it’s being patient, loving, listening, supportive, and I just try to strive for that every day, and try to remind myself when I’m noticing myself getting a little tense and frustrated with something or somebody. Take that deep breath and try to bring that mantra in and when I get in touch with that I think I do ok. And good things happen, every time I do get in touch with that for everybody. And that’s why I like this. I’ve done the computer trade for decades, and I’ve been, you know, doing the therapeutic trade and the computer trade I’m very, very good at but it makes me a machine, and the therapeutic side make me a better person. It encourages empathy rather than discourages like the computer side. So, that’s why it’s important I do more of this. Keep that balance there.

Melody [14:27] 

Wonderful! Thank you so much! To our listeners, please see the podcast description for details on how you can connect with Hawke Robinson. In our next podcast episode, we will be talking with Hawke about guidance category questions. The difference between therapy and games being therapeutic. We’ll be talking about autism, archetypes, Bartle, and we’ll talk about situations when professional guidance is needed. So stay tuned for that! Follow us to receive notifications when new podcasts are released! For more podcasts and information, check out our website: https://www.gamemastercertification.org/. If you liked what you’ve heard in this episode, please hit that share button and help us spread the word! Thank you for listening!