Melody [00:00]:

Welcome to the Game Master Certification Organization's interview excerpt podcast series. Hi, I'm your host, Melody Rainelle. For the next few episodes, we have the pleasure of interviewing Benton Dinsmore, an artist who also happens to be a Game Master. So, without further ado, why don't we get started? Benton, would you like to introduce yourself for our listeners?

 Benton [00:24]:

Alright. Hi, I'm Benton Dinsmore. I have been playing D&D since the 2nd Edition. When I was about eight years old and saw my parents play. I have played in a ton of different campaigns and, after running in one of a friend's games, I decided I wanna take my hand at DMing and since then I've been trying to write in fun adventures and stories to tell my friends.

 Melody [00:51]:

So what tabletop role playing game systems do you like?

 Benton [00:54]:

What systems do I like? I have played a lot of different systems. So, I've played D&D, like I said, since the second edition. I've played 13th Age, Call of Cthulhu. I think the most fun I've had was actually a Legend of the Five Rings system. That was probably my most fun. Either that or Vampire: The Masquerade, but I think I liked that one just cause I was in a vampire phase when I was playing it. So yeah, I gotta say it was probably like Legend of the Five Rings was probably the most fun system just cause it was a unique dice rolling system.

 Melody [01:30]:

Could you quickly tell us a little more about the Legend of the Five Rings system?

 Benton [01:35]:

Yeah, you get a bunch of D10s and you make a pool of D10s and you roll those and you're trying to get above like a five upon the dice to be success. And you wanna have more successes than failures. It's less like hitting a target number, it's more trying to have enough odds in your favor.

 Melody [01:56]:

Okay, cool. So my next question is more of a statement, but would you please talk about your art?

 Benton [02:04]:

Okay, so I mean like that's a weird question to ask me since I'm an artist. I think a lot of… I think a lot of my D&D inspiration comes from just paintings or drawings that I do. Like I'll draw something and it'll spark an idea. For instance, the guys just fought a big fey creature essentially. But, it all started because I was sitting around doodling and I drew this weird distorted deer statue. And that immediately started me thinking, okay well who would've created this thing and why would they have created this thing? And you know, what's the story about this statue? It was just a cool looking drawing. And then from there I started just building up on it. In art there's a technique of just layering. You know, you start out with a rough sketch and you slowly refine it and you slowly get your drawing better. Or if you're painting you start adding layers of complexity and layers of paint and layers of color and eventually you work your way up to a higher level where you’re starting to add like fine detail and texture. And I think that that's really helped me build these D&D games because I have gotten into a habit of starting with a rough sketch and layering up until I get to a really good narrative or story. But the other important thing that I think it's really taught me is focus. A big technique in art, in paintings particularly, is controlling the eye of the viewer. And Rembrandt, some of his works, which I love looking at, he would only render out in high detail 10% - 20% of the painting. Like the one point he wanted to have you look at had a really bright light shining on it and it was really detailed. And then as you look into the outer edges of the paintings, it's super rough, it looks unfinished, but as you take a step back you don't see that anymore. You don't see those rough edges, you don't see that unfinished look. All you see is that beautiful masterpiece where he's got you to focus right in that one 20% sector of the painting. And I think that's a really beneficial thing that I picked up from looking at Rembrandt’s paintings and looking at other great masters of painting, trying to get better at my own painting that I was able to then translate over to writing creatively for D&D. It's like I don't need to turn over every stone of my world and figure out how many insects are underneath each one. I don't need to count every blade of grass so that if the players ask, “Well how many blades of grass are in this field?”, that I have a solid number for them. I don't need that info neither does the player, it's inconsequential. So if my players ask me a question about something that is in that outer boundary, I've stopped worrying about having to have you know a specific name for every NPC, I'll let them know right out the gate. You know, that this guy's name is Bob Inconsequential. You know, he's not important to the plot, I'll give you a name for him but he's not really important. Don't focus on him. Your attention should be back over here on this person that does have a name. Or this item that has a name. Or where I've put my main attention and I just gently steer you back towards that path. And guys have been really good about, you know, “Oh, okay cool. Ok, I don't need to write this down,” and moving back on to it. And, I think that's actually been a huge help as well. The guys are willing to play that role and go, “Oh ok. I don't need to be the jerk that asks for every NPC’s name anymore.” I know that some people still like to get every NPC’s name, and I do give names to the NPCs if you ask me for one. But a lot of the time they don't matter, they're not important. And if they are important I'll tell you that upfront, I'll tell you their name. That's how you know it's important cause I've given you that shiny object upfront and shown it to you. But yeah. Being an artist, being a painter has really helped me creatively writing, by allowing me to understand principles to help not waste my time. To help layer my stories and to help really only put a lot of polish on the thing I want paid attention to. That's the key - that is: only polish the most important stuff. The rest of it, it's window dressing and you guys, the players, you'll see it and you'll go, “Ok there's, you know, fields and deers and everything. Everything's cool. I don't need to go out there, I don't have any interest to go out there cause there's this really cool, you know, ruin or castle or dungeon” or whatever I've told you about that now grabs your attention and pulls you in and that's all you care about asking me questions about. And I definitely learned that technique from painting.

 Melody [07:19]:

Awesome. That's a great basic principle to keep in mind that could be translated into other areas of life as well, even beyond the game if you think about it. So, moving on, what are the things that you are when you're not being a game master?

Benton [07:36]:

What are the things that I am when I'm not a GM? I have too many hobbies is what I have. I am part of a medieval nonprofit, a medieval recreation nonprofit. And, before the COVID times I would go out on the weekends and I would fight in tournaments. And now with COVID that's all kinda been put on hold. I am a freelance artist. And I go to school, improving my skills there but also take actual commission jobs for that. I work 40 plus hours as a production analyst for a tax company. So, I look at hard code data and find errors in million and a half line files. I've got a kid, so I'm a dad some of the time. Yeah, I've got way too many hobbies and my clock is very full when I'm not DMing.

 Melody [08:41]:

Thanks for sharing. What do you love most about games?

 Benton [08:46]:

What do I love about games? Games are a form of escapism for me that is emotionally unlike any other type of media. I have been deeply, emotionally moved by a single video game in my life. One really deeply moved me. I have had hundreds of moments in tabletop RPGs that have made me drastically reevaluate my own personal choices in life and want to become a better person because of situations that happened in D&D games. I can give you an example if you'd like.

 Melody [09:38]:

Sure, go for it.

Benton [09:40]:

I was playing in an evil campaign and one of the players was a- he was a goofy character but we absolutely loved his character. He was Alfonso the Great, he was this undead bard and he was actually a character with split personality. So if you've ever seen Batman, you got the bad guy who's called Scarface, the puppet, and he's actually the puppeteer, like that's his real person. But the puppeteer doesn't realize that the puppet isn't alive and is horribly mistreated by his personality. Which is the puppet and himself. And so, the player was playing off that trope and the human that carried the puppet, his name was Dantro. But Alfonso the Great was the puppet and we would not- you know, we didn't talk to Dantro ever. We always talked to Alfonso. Dantro was merely Alfonso's chauffeur, he carried him everywhere cause he was above walking, why would he walk when he's so great? And he just played it off so perfectly and we got captured and like I said, this was an evil campaign and the GM was really like… he was taking some psychology classes in college. And so he was messing with some ideas that he had. And so he started pulling us into a room off by ourselves, one at a time. And he'd sit us down at a small desk and you know, he'd say, “Bring your dice with you.” And you know, you'd go back in there, and he'd start interrogating you, like as your character. Not you the person, but as your character. He would immediately start interrogating you as this, you know, the Grand Inquisitor. And, he would like start rolling damage. And he was like, you know, they put these torture devices on you and start cranking them down. And, it was, it was super stressful. I was getting panic attacks during this game and then he'd like, he'd be done, he'd be like, “Ok, you can go back out. Don't tell anybody what happened.” Right? And so you'd go back out in the main room with everybody else and you just wouldn't say anything. And when he took Dantro in, when he took that character in… Dantro doesn't talk. Dantro the personality is silent. So they took the puppet away from him and they broke all his fingers. And, like, that moment, like, I had such an overwhelming, like, rage because I realized in that moment that my personal loyalty to my friends was my like driving factor in real life. Because in that moment when that happened I, the player, completely lost myself with anger. I was like, how could they do that? That is the worst possible thing that could happen. And I made some character choices that were way extreme. Like I would not even make those character choices today because I understand that they were super extreme. But like that character vowed to, like, eradicate a guy's family. I was gonna kill all of his heirs. I was gonna end his family line for what he did to my friend. Because I, the player, was so angry with what happened to a fictional friend. A fictional friend! I was willing to, like, take out a blood feud for. And after that game was over, after that campaign was over, I had to like really sit down and about that and like really, like, “Oh man, like, am I really this angry of a person? Like that's- that got dark real quick and I need to really, like, check myself because holy cow I got a little outta control.” And I've had, you know, that is what D&D can do for you. It can dig up stuff that you didn't even know was inside you. But it-  it finds… it worms its way in. You know, cause one DM will have one technique that gets a little bit deeper past your walls than other people and it'll just hurt that little bit and eventually you know, you'll learn some stuff about yourself that you didn't even know. And you have to really like, take some stock in yourself and figure out who you are as a person and D&D will definitely help you do that.

 Melody [14:29]:

Wow. That was quite the experience. Okay, moving on. Would you please describe your better self?

 Benton [14:39]:

My better self? You mean like describe the ideal version of me or describe the me that has been changed by D&D?

 Melody [14:53]:

The questions are intentionally vague so answer it however you'd like.

 Benton [14:57]:

Okay, cool. I'm glad I got this far in then. So my better self. I feel like through tabletop RPGs, through gaming in general. I have developed and sharpened my ability to critically think, to look at situations as a whole and really like break them down into manageable pieces. I feel like I have tempered a lot of my more fiery personality traits. You know, my father has a really bad temper. I definitely inherited it from him. And in my younger days I was very easily set off and I feel like D&D has definitely helped me, you know, come to grasps with that. And not only that but given me some tools to like stop and evaluate the situation. And if nothing else it's subconscious like thought like okay, did I fail a perception check here? Or you know, but hold on, do a sense motive check. And like that is enough of a mental pause for a lot of me to like take a breath, figure out what's going on and not be so short fused. I feel like it's strengthened my loyalty and compassion towards my friends and those around me. I feel like it has brought an immeasurable amount of joy into my life because I know that I am always talking about D&D with somebody. I don't go a single week without talking to at least three people about D&D and that speaks volumes to how much joy that brings to me. Because if I didn't enjoy it, I sure as heck wouldn't talk about it three times a week. I feel like D&D has definitely shown me that not everything is always what I'm able to see. It's not that I failed a perception check, it's not that I, you know, didn't have enough dark vision to see that far. Sometimes stuff is happening in the shadows beyond the players' ability to see it no matter how high their skills are, no matter how high their roles are. Some things are beyond a NAT 20 roll, so the player’s done nothing wrong but still would never know that kinda stuff. And I feel like that has definitely helped me, especially in my professional life. Because, you know, there are conversations I'm not privy to at my current job level and there'll always be conversations I'm not privy to and so D&D has taught me to not assume the personal attack early. And assume that you know, there's probably info that I don't have access to and it's okay that I don't have access to it. When I'm supposed to get that info, I'll get it. I feel like it has also made me a better person by allowing me to understand that everybody is gonna fall short sometimes. Everybody's gonna roll a one. You can't avoid it. You're gonna do it a lot in a course of the campaign. That's just life. And to not dwell on those rolled ones, you know, you gotta pick yourself up and keep going to the next round of combat. You gotta pick yourself up and keep trying to move forward. You don't dwell on those failures. It's not a reflection of you as a person, but it's just the way the game is played. You’re gonna have those rolls and you're gonna have great rolls later. You just gotta work your way through it to get there.

 Melody [19:09]:

Awesome. Okay, before we wrap up, I would like to ask you just a couple questions on the topic of worldbuilding, okay? So, to start with, what is your favorite worldbuilding detail?

Benton [19:21]:

Worldbuilding detail. I think it depends, right? Cause I think that worldbuilding has to be constructed around the story that you're trying to tell. It should always be constructed around the narrative. And I feel like this is a trap that a lot of new DMs fall into. They feel like they have to worldbuild everything before you can run the game. And I used to be like that. I spent two years making a world or building out this world that our campaign lasted three sessions in before the group just fell apart. And so it was a lot of work on my part to like figure out all this- all these little details and minutia that had no bearing on the story, no bearing on the game and never got touched by the players. So I feel like world building is a big trap that new DMs fall into too much. I think once you have the story you wanna tell, you need to build the world that is directly around that narrative. That's the important bit. And then as your players start going into new areas, then you can start adding more to the world and start populating it out beyond what they can see. But you gotta keep it inside that horizon line. Don't go beyond the player's horizon line. If they can't see it, don't waste your time building it. Maybe make like a one sentence note about something, but that's it. And just come back to it when the players are getting ready to go there. The thing I like the most about worldbuilding is probably… See I'm weird, I don't know if other people like this as much, but I like building instances into my world that feel like they would happen in today's modern world. And it's always a social interaction of some sort. So I'll find like a hot button issue or a hot philosophical issue that either I hear about, or I'm personally trying to think my way through. And I'll try to write up a scenario that would answer that philosophical question for me. And then I pose it to my players to see like how they attack that problem and solve that problem. As a way to get myself some different perspective on weird moral quagmires. Did that answer the question you were trying to get?

 Melody [21:51]:

Sure. That's great. Thanks. What worldbuilding tools do you use?

 Benton [21:57]:

So I use a couple of tools. I have a mapping program that I use to map out areas. And I have a couple of random generating websites that I use for most stuff. In my younger days I would spend countless hours like plotting out the demographics of nations and plotting out like the 

theocracies and the ruling classes and stuff like that. And it's, that's a lot of front-end loading for the system. Now my primary tool, no joke, is OneNote. I have a OneNote tab for all my ideas. And so, as I think about a new idea, I'll write down one sentence and like that just gets added to my world. I don’t know where yet, but it's added there somewhere. So like I was listening to a- this history podcast about the Hulks, which were prison ships on the river Thames and they basically were giant ships that they just load people into and forget about mostly. And I was like, man, that'll be a cool thing to have like an oversized prison ship that broke free of its moorings and went out to sea. And because it was a prison ship. They were just like, “Well, problem solved! That's not gonna come back and bite us.” So I opened up my OneNote and I jotted that down. You know, a giant prison ship floated out to sea. That's all it says. And then, you know, as I feel like we're getting closer to an adventure around that topic… I've got dozens of these things; but as I feel like we're going in that direction, I'll take the time to start fleshing out what is on that ship and what's around that ship. And from there I'll start bridging out: “Ok, well how would you go about getting to there? Like has it washed ashore somewhere? Is it stuck in a sargasso somewhere? You know, what's the instigating incident to get people to there and tell a fun story there? But in my current stage of DMing I've gotten to a really improvisational state. So like, I don't know how much they think was actually written down for the adventure, the guys just went through. But I would say I've probably only written down about 20% of it, maybe 33%. Let's shoot for a high end, I've written down a third of it and I've written down the high notes like the big key points I wanna hit. And then a lot of it is just reaction to what you guys are doing to make sure I can, not steer but like gently point you back. Rather than putting railroad tracks down. I put a lot of neon signs that point in the direction I want you to go. And it feels less heavy-handed, but it still keeps you guys on track with the story that I'm trying to tell.

 Melody (24:57):

Okay, thank you so much. Well, we'll wrap up this podcast episode here and we definitely look forward to chatting with you over the next couple of episodes. 

 To our listeners, please see the podcast description for details on how you can connect with Benton Dinsmore and check out some of his art. In our next podcast episode, we will be talking with Benton about some leadership category questions: player agency, safety tools, handling players... So stay tuned! Follow us to receive notifications when new podcasts are released. For more podcasts and information, check out our website: https://www.gamemastercertification.org/. If you liked what you've heard in this episode, please share it. Thank you for listening.