Melody [0:00]

The Game Master Certification Organization welcomes you to our interview excerpt podcast series on the topic of tabletop role playing games. Hi, I’m your host, Melody Rainelle. In this podcast episode we have the pleasure of interviewing Benton Dinsmore – an artist and a Game Master with several years of experience. Without further ado, let’s get started! Benton, here’s a really hard question for you to start with, okay? How do you handle mistakes?

Benton [00:32]

How do I handle mistakes. I don't think there are mistakes. Okay, asterisk for that. If I make a mistake. Because I do. I screw up sometimes, especially because of how improv I've been going lately. I have a tendency to try to always say, “Yes, and… yes, and…” And really, like, go forward with whatever you guys want to do. There have been times where I've said, “Yeah, yeah, yeah! Of course you can do that.” And then, like, the game will end and then over the course of that week both between games, I realize, “Aw man, that just totally ruined my narrative. That totally destroyed the narrative I have.” And so, I'll start the next session… I’ll say, “Hey guys, I screwed up.” I’ll own that. Own it first. Like, that's the first important thing is be comfortable saying you screwed up. And so, I'll say, “I screwed up. Here's how I screwed up. And here's what I would like to do to fix that screw up.” You know, maybe I gave you too powerful of an item, or too powerful of an ability, and I'll tell you, “You know what? I screwed up. I need to rework this, I'm not gonna take back any of the past, you know, the past has already happened. But moving forward. It's now gonna be like this. Is that cool?” And everybody usually is pretty understanding that, “Oh, you know, yeah. Hey, you know, it was really fun last night, or last week when we got to use all that cool stuff. But yeah, no, you're right, it’s probably a little bit OP [overpowered]. So, we'll let you dial it back.” If players, quote-unquote, make mistakes... I don't really think there are irreparable mistakes. I think that's one of the, like, worst concepts we have as a society is that you can make a mistake and can never make up for it. And people are too quick to say, “You screwed up. You're a failure.” And I don't like doing that. So, like, for instance that big fire, you know? That fire was not planned. That fire was 100% a mistake. It burned a lot. And, like, I had to spend the next week thinking about how much collateral damage happens from that fire. What were the consequences to that action. And, you know, it ended up, I made a couple of rolls, and it affected two towns, it wasn't just one town. It was the next town over as well. And it burned through a big open field, but also in the middle of that field was a camp of bandits that were then engulfed in fire. So, plus there - you eliminated a camp of bandits without even knowing it. So, like, there's always pluses and minuses to every quote-unquote mistake. And I'll never tell my players, “You just made a mistake.” I'll never say that because I don't see them that way. I see them as branches in the multiverse. There was an opportunity for you to go down this way and do this thing. You're not on that universe anymore. You're in the universe where you started a wildfire. And that's just where you are now. And it wasn't a mista- Like, yeah, the fire was unintended, but that's where we live now. And, you know I'll adjust my story... That’s also the benefit of writing as little as I have. Because I only have those big, high points in the story, when these quote-unquote mistakes come up, it's very easy for me to be the one that's flexible and adjust my story to still fit with what's happening in the world. Did that answer the question?

Melody [4:06]

Yes, thank you. How do you handle players that are upset with each other?

Benton [4:11]

Oh, God. Wow, that's topical. There's no good way. There's no good way to handle players that do not get along. I think the most important thing: Step one, separate them. Step two, listen to both of their grievances and actually listen. Like, you have to really be impartial when you do that step. But you have to be able to understand what the root of their grievance is. And that sometimes is very difficult to get to. We had two players like that in our game. And I spent probably a three-day period going back and forth between the two of them, talking to them, finding what their grievances were, asking them what they expected, what they would like. Like, “What is your ideal solution? What is the ideal solution for you; like, everything goes your way. What's that look like to you?” And then I have to ask them, “Okay. If that's the perfect situation, what is the acceptable situation? Because we all know what the unacceptable situation is. The unacceptable situation is: one of you isn't playing in the game anymore. So, we don't want to be there, and we know that there's got to be a median somewhere between the ideal situation, and that complete and utter failure of a situation. So, what's the compromise ground - where's the middle ground?” And a lot of times I feel like there's just miscommunication. But sometimes there is some underlying personal disgust for one another or dislike for one another. If there is a compromise- like, if there is a common ground that you can meet on, do it. That's super important. But you have to be… You got to be a bad guy to both of the players. You can't be buddy, buddy to one, and a bad guy to the other. You have to be a bad guy to both. You gotta be like, “Look, this is a problem. This conflict between you is a problem.” The player is not a problem. The other player is also not a problem, but the conflict between them is the problem. And if they are willing to come back to the table and meet, you know, these expectations, then there shouldn't be any more problem. And that works for a considerable amount of problems. Those two players butted heads every week. It was a constant thing with them. And when I spent that time talking to them, it relieves that tension for a while. But, I mean, you also have to be ultimately understanding that it might not work out. If there's two players that don't get along, and it's the players that have the problem, not the characters that have the problem, then it's possible you're gonna lose one or both of those players. And if you're not careful, you’re gonna poison all your players to the game. And I think that is the biggest fail. Like, that's the worst outcome is not only did these two players make the game unfun for each other, but they've made the entire party, the entire group of people, not want to come to the table anymore either. If you have a player that is toxic like that, it is unfortunate, but it is better to get rid of them. It's even better if they want to leave themselves, but that's not always gonna be the case. Sometimes you're gonna have to say, “Hey, you know what, man? You're not working with this group. You're not agreeing to the terms that we came to when we had our discussion. You gotta go.” It's sucky. It's not fun. But I think that the longer you have toxic people at your table, the worse the entire party will feel in the long run.

Melody [8:02]

Okay. You mentioned, “As long as it’s not a problem with their characters…” Can you please expound on that?

Benton [8:10]

Sure. So, I think there's a big difference. I think there's a huge difference between characters butting heads and players butting heads. And the difference is that level of verisimilitude and the understanding that, you know, I don't dislike you as a person. My character is being a bit of a jerk, and I'm playing my character, the way he would be, and he doesn't like your character, and that's an in-game conflict at that point. And the good thing about those is, as soon as the game ends, the players will immediately reset back to being friends and having a good time. They're having an enjoyable time playing the game; their characters just hate each other. And I have coined the term in my household, of putting it back in the box. You know? We will play crazy big board games or things like that. And I will get furious with my friends. Absolutely furious. But all my friends know as soon as the game is over… As soon as the game is over. I do not dislike them. I love them deeply. All that anger and all that hatred that I had for them during the game goes back in the box. And it's not me, it's like – it’s that game itself is making me frustrated and angry, and that's not a reflection of them, and it's not a reflection of our friendship. It is just the game, and how that game needs to be played. And I think everybody that I've told that to has really laughed about it because they know that I get really heated, especially if it's like a big strategy game. I'll get superheated. I'll make threats against their families, and like they all know that it's all just huff and puff. And then at the end of the game, it goes back in the box, and we have a great time talking about it. And, you know, those are some of our favorite moments is those moments where I get super heated and they know that they've just, you know, ruined my master plan and foiled my entire game, which is the only reason why I’m heated in the first place. So, keeping it a character-to-character animosity, at the end of the night, it goes back in the box. The players still had a great time; they're still friends. You're not going to have any conflict between the two players. You know, you're not gonna have a conflict between Steve and Bob with the players, you're gonna have a conflict between Stefano and Robert, the characters in the game. But that just leads to more opportunities as a Dungeon Master to give those characters growth opportunities. What is the crux of those two characters’ animosity, and how can I as a Game Master, throw out some breadcrumbs to guide them to growing as a person, to overcome that obstacle. And I mean that's the whole “Hero's Journey” kind of idea that I think everybody that plays these type of games wants to really experience, which is why I actually like those character animosities as long as it's character-to-character and not player-to-player. Because over the course of a 10-level campaign, if I have two players that hate each other at the beginning, there’s a strong chance that I can get them stuck in a in-game situation, where their characters have to make a massive decision, and they will come out of that situation being like the strongest of blood brothers because of the situation, versus continuing that animosity to the end of the campaign.

Melody [11:56]

Alright. Do you feel any kind of obligation towards providing a therapeutic outlook in your gaming, even though you’re not a therapist?

Benton [12:06]

I do actually. I do. Dungeons and Dragons for me is exceptionally therapeutic. There have been quite a few situations as a player and as a DM, where I have used D&D to get an alternate outlook on situations that I'm in, psychologically.  Not necessarily the same situation, but definitely a tangential situation, that gives me a perspective that I can kind of use as a sounding board. Tabletop RPGs allow you to be someone other than yourself. That is the biggest benefit when you are trying to work through some mental stuff. If you're having some violent tendencies. You could be a barbarian and get catharsis slaughtering goblins. You're not hurting anybody. And you're working through whatever demons you got there. And speaking of demons, you can go demon hunting. Like, where else can you go demon hunting to, you know, work through your demons, and that is extremely therapeutic if the DM and the player both know the situation, right? And are both okay with the situation. But if I can use my story to help alleviate somebody else's trauma… My God, I'll do everything I can. I'll do everything I can to help. My nephew. The first D&D game he ever played and I wrote for him… He was diagnosed with epilepsy, and he was having a lot of trouble with his sisters. He had two sisters, and his mom told me that he was getting really violent with his sisters and she needed some outlet for him because he was getting really aggressive. And I wrote up a really quick little campaign; it was a little one-off adventure about this ghost on this island that had been murdered by her sister, and I- like it- this was years ago now, so I'm trying to remember all the minutiae. But, the sister had lured her out to this island, and then had killed her, and then was so afraid to go home and be punished, that she just went feral on this island. And it was this really dark story, but I didn't give all the clues to the players I- You know, I gave as little as I could to get them there and get them putting the pieces together. And it was right after, like, the setup of what's going on and he saw the ghosts, and he saw some writing that I had put on the wall and he's like, “Oh no, it was her sister.” And he realized it. Like it immediately clicked because he was feeling the same way. And, like, he realized because I had shown him the townsfolk and how traumatized they were by this, by the death of these two girls they thought both of them had died. And I was able to tell him the stories from the perspectives of these town folks. How they didn't see these two children as bad or evil. And he got to go out and try to rescue and save the one sister that was still alive. And that was a definitive therapeutic moment for him because he was able to see his own situation from a different perspective that he hadn't been able to look at before. And I had written it that way. I intentionally wrote it that way because we were talking to his mom and she was saying that he was having these issues. And I was like, I want him to see that it's not necessarily what he thinks it is. It's just people don't always tell you straight to your face how they really feel. And so as an outsider coming in on these two sisters, he was able to get this information and get their stories in a really deep, personal way that I don't think the two sister characters would have ever gotten, nor was he getting from the people around him. Like, he was in that same situation and he wasn't getting that outside perspective because he couldn't see beyond his bubble. And that was a big turning point for him. At least I think it was. His mother thanked me a couple months later, but, yeah, I think it was therapeutic and I love using DND for that.

Melody [16:42]

Cool. If we may ask, how old was your nephew?

Benton [16:46]

At the time, he was 11 or 12? Yeah, he was 11 or 12 at the time.

Melody [16:54]

Okay. Thank you for sharing. How do you handle players that are upset with themselves?

Benton [17:01]

It really depends. I think you have to kind of... I think with any therapeutic usage of D&D it really depends on the player and the character, right? If a player is unhappy with themselves. I might try to steer their character into a realization of self-actualization. But at the same time like that's a delicate thing to do because it's really heavy-handed. I think a more effective technique would be getting that player to really invest emotionally in their character. And just making that character really kick butt, you know? Like, give them a couple extra items that make them more powerful, give them an ability or two that really, you know, it sets them a little bit above. Give them a moment. Like, you can throw all the magic items, and all the feats you want at players, and it won't do nearly as much as a really cool moment. And so, set up a situation where they get to be freaking awesome for a minute or two. Let them do a really cool maneuver or parkour off a wall and, you know, cleave the head off the dragon in a single swipe. Really, like, spice it up as much as you can. But make sure that you've set up the situation for that player to take advantage of it. Like find what their character can do that none of the other characters can, and really be like, “Oh, this is going to be the moment.” And sometimes you got to put it in a couple of spots because they're going to miss the first couple, but make sure that they see it, and make sure you tell them, “Hey, there's a thing.” And then reward them with a really cool, almost cinematic moment, with doing that cool thing. And that, if they're emotionally invested in that character, when that player does that thing, their endorphins are gonna go through the roof. That's gonna be the moment that everybody talks about for weeks. And everybody else at the table is going to talk about it as, “Oh my God! When you did that, and you did that thing- you did that double-backflip-spinning-kick to that guy's face! Oh my gosh!” All the other players will talk about it as if it was the person that did it. Not the character, and in the moment, the player is so focused in being a cool character, they forget that they're the one in control, and so they're willing to do those awesome things. But then like the next couple of weeks when all your players are just raving about that moment. That's gonna be what feeds that person's self-worth, because everybody else is gonna be like: “You did that. You did that thing. I didn't- I couldn't have done that. But you did that. That was awesome.” And it really- I think that's the biggest thing is: is hype up the actions they do, but also make sure you give them the opportunity to take those grand actions. 

Melody [20:18]

Awesome. Have you ever had a player upset with your game?

Benton [20:23]

Um, not that's told me. Yeah, I haven't had a player come to me and say they didn't like my game. I'm sure I have. I had some pretty garbage games early on. I try really hard not to have a crappy game, but I have like real bad imposter syndrome when I run. I'm really worried that I'm running a crappy game. So, I'm already a pretty harsh critic of my own stuff. So, I'm always trying to make sure that it's at the best level that it can be. I'm sure I have had somebody upset, but, like, they've never confronted me and said, “Your game sucked.” Or, “I didn't have good time.” I've never had them say that to me.

Melody [21:00]

Okay. How do you know if you did a good job?

Benton [21:04]

Well, like I said with the imposter syndrome, I always think I did a bad job. I always think I did a terrible job. And then I can tell if I did a good job, if, when I talk to my players the next week, they're still excitedly talking about it. You know? You can tell when you’ve hit a dud moment in the story because the next time you sit down to play with your characters, the energy level is just not there. It's just- They’re like, “Ah, you know, we're in a tavern doing the, the, the thing for the, for the tavern keeper. You gotta go clean out the stables, and then we gotta to find the dwarf. Yeah, that's what we were doing.” You know, the energy level is just not there. If you come back to the table, and everybody is excitedly talking, “Oh, man! Ah… Don't forget we got to go do- you know, we gotta go find the rod, we gotta get the top of the staff and then climb down into the Map Room.” You know, that kind of energy immediately tells me, “Okay, I've done a good thing because they're still talking about it. They're still excited about it.” It's difficult for me, like, that's probably the biggest difficulty I have as a DM is because I'll worry about that all week. I'll worry that I'm not having a good game, and that you can tell me, “No, man that was super fun.” And I'll still worry that it wasn't a good game. It's just imposter syndrome, so it's really hard to- It's really hard for me to say, you know, that I did a good thing. Like, honestly, the final fight with our last campaign. That was a great session and I know it was a great session because we went three hours longer than we normally do, and nobody even looked at their watches to know that we went three hours over. That was a great session, everybody had a great time. I did not question that one bit. Every week prior to that, it was a constant battle in my head of, “Aw, man. Did I really screw it up? Are they hating this game? You know, do they not like this game? How can I make this a better game for them? Which is probably why, you know, that last session turned into such a fun game, is cause I'm always trying to look for: “How do I plus it up? How do I make it better?” Because I have to make it better for myself.

Melody [23:27]

So, that actually leads well into my next question: How are you improving as a Game Master? 

Benton [23:33]

Okay. I am improving as a GM in a couple of different directions. I think of them as different directions at least. First and foremost, I'm getting a lot better being improvisational. I'm not reliant on the hard, written structure of my stories anymore. And I've gotten a lot better at just concepting out, like, the briefest amount of the story, and then being able to just build it on the fly from there. Additionally, I think I'm getting better at building player moments for players. And I, like, I feel so bad for character in our last game, the player moments that I had planned were gonna be so epic. And then he was… murdered. And, like, that was rough, but I think I've gotten better at it as a GM at building those moments for players, so that every player gets a cool moment. And it really sucks when those don't come off the way you want, but you know you gotta get better at it. And you- well, I feel like I've gotten better at [inaudible]. I don't feel I've gotten better at narrative, but I'm okay at narrative. I don’t know. There's always room to improve. Like, DMing is a constant methodology of trying something, and finding out whether or not it works or doesn't work. And then, you know, throwing it aside. Regardless of the outcome and trying something new. And then, you know, you'll look at both of those and see which one was better. And they might have both worked but which one was better. And then you just keep that one for the third thing so it's constant evolution of storytelling.

Melody [25:26]

Awesome. What would you say the milestones are for Game Masters?

Benton [25:31]

Hmm. I think every GM starts out very “Monty Haul”. You know? The games are very slapstick. The monsters are really goofy. The characters are really goofy. Everything is very loose. A lot of times you're just plugging and playing monsters directly from the monster manual, and everything is very two-dimensional. I think from there. The next milestone is trying to… I think every DM eventually tries to create their own world. And inevitably, they're gonna get in over their head, trying to create a world. There's so much that goes into creating a world. I think there's a lot of self-doubt after that. That's a huge milestone for DMs, like, realizing you can't create a whole world by yourself. And then you quickly overcome that, because if you want to DM… I mean, not everyone does. I think that's a big hurdle for a lot of DMs; you either overcome that hurdle or you don't. The ones that do overcome that hurdle, I think, are the ones that realize that it's easier if you have a story you're trying to tell. And I mean it doesn't have to be your story, like you could have read a cool book, and you've now taken that. You're like, “I want to put this in a game.” That's great. That's perfect. Do it. Hopefully your players haven't read the same book, because then it'll be fun and new for them. But even so, like, that's a milestone of taking the media that you're used to and putting it into your games. And then I think that final milestone for DMs, is the ability to take the media that you've been watching, change the names and mix multiple medias together. I think that's the last milestone for DMs, and that's that pinnacle of storytelling that people don't realize that you’ve- they don't see it as plagiarism because you're not, like- I played a game where we're one of the NPCs was Jack Sparrow from the Pirates of the Caribbean game. Same character. Everything about him was identical. That breaks verisimilitude. That makes it less fun for me as a player. It makes it very goofy. Had the DM changed his name, a simple name change. You know, this is Captain Ron or something like that, you know. That would have been an immediate fix to the problem. And that's a milestone that DMs have to come to - is understanding that something as simple as a name change is sometimes enough to, like, cover up that you've taken this character from somewhere else. And then, understanding that if you're gonna have that carbon copy of the character, you can take that character's mannerisms and things like that- You know, we've got Captain Jack Sparrow - we changed his name; he's now Captain Ron. And we now have to change his motivation a little bit more, so he's no longer hunting for the Black Pearl, but he is hunting for something. So, maybe he's hunting for the Gem of, you know, Tortuga or something of that nature… Obviously change the name of the city, the town. So, the Gem of, you know, Telfaya, or something of that nature. It's the same story, you know, you can still use the same story beats. He had the gem. His crew mutinied against him; they took the gem. But now, you know, he's Captain Ron and he's trying to get a gem, from his mutinous, cursed crew and the players, when you present that to them, won't recognize it as the same as Captain Jack Sparrow when in actuality is the exact same person; the exact same story beats. You just spun around a couple of names. Or you can take the plot of a character in a different movie and mash it into him. So, you go and you take Captain Jack Sparrow and you mash them up with Han Solo so he's this, you know, rebel-without-a-cause pilot or ship captain, and he's now, you know, trying to help a rebellion, but he's got all the mannerisms of, you know, Johnny Depp's portrayal of Captain Jack Sparrow. You just blended those two things together and now you have a new story and a new character, and the players are not going to realize that you’ve been heavily influenced by these two other properties that are properties that I guarantee the players are gonna know. And that's a huge milestone to get to.

Melody [30:13]

Fantastic. Benton, we really appreciate your taking the time to talk with us and share your insights, perspective and thoughts on these tabletop role playing games. We actually learned a lot from you - we really appreciate your time!

To our listeners: Please, see the podcast description for details on how you can connect with Benton Dinsmore and check out some of his art! This is the last podcast episode for our interview with Benton, but don’t worry! Stay tuned for awesome content from the Game Master Certification Organization coming up! Follow us to receive notifications when new podcasts are released. For more podcasts and information, check out our website: https://www.gamemastercertification.org/.  If you liked what you’ve heard in this episode, please share it! Thank you for listening. This is Melody Rainelle, signing off.